For a Christian, I would say you make some reasonably good points :-)

(atheist speaking here)

Why are we here? Simple statistics. As we speak, life is trying to emerge on millions of planets throughout the universe, and failing. But once in a while, the right conditions are there, and that's what happened to us. Not trying to convince you (I know I won't) but just pointing out that there are other possible explanations than an omnipotent god to account for our existence.

Finally, your personal philosophy ("not keeping score", etc...) seems to be very much at odds with the principles of Christianity ("you can do whatever you please even kill someone as long as you confess, and then you'll be forgiven") and very much in line with teachings of other religions, such as Budhism.

Have you considered switching? :-)

-- Tanis

Ugo says: "...based on unproven statements that must be believed on faith alone, suspending all rational discussions."

You disagree and expound on this disagreement by writing: "Yes, faith is required, but it's backed up by the Bible and historical evidence, and by evidence from the natural world - some things that you "just know" to be true from your birth without being given an explanation, such as the existence of good and evil. Most of all, it's evident in the difference it has made in my own life and the lives of those around me."

But therein lies the rub. The Bible is the rock upon which Christianity lies. Without faith in the statement: "the Bible is the divinely inspired word of God", there is no Christianity. But that exact statement in the Bible's divinity is an "unproven statement that must be believed on faith alone".

Furthermore, things that one 'just knows' can hardly be called proven statements. Nor can one claim these things one 'just knows' can be accepted on anything *but* faith.

And to top it off, you mention the "evidence" seen in the lives around you. Well, I see all kinds of evidence in some Christians: hypocrisy, depression, anger, jealousy, adultury, abuse, etc etc. I also see all kinds of evidence in some Buddists, Muslims, Taoists: kindness, calmness, selflessness, generousity, loyalty. To claim that "evidences" in one's life can be attributed to a Christian God - or any god - is one more example of an "unproved statement that must be accepted on faith alone."

All religion is based, at the bottom of the well, at the core of the religion, on faith. You've written as much yourself. There is no getting around the necessity for a blind leap accross the chasm, no matter if one is Buddist, Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Hindu, etc, etc, etc.

Have to disagree a little with your last statement, CuRoi. There are definitely folks who follow a very philosophical side of Buddhism that don't rely on faith, but rather meditate, observe, experience and try to avoid getting stuck on a particular world view. Faith seems to run counter to that approach.

Good responses.

Tanis - no I haven't considered switching :) Buddhism doesn't resonate for me because of the lack of a creator, and re-incarnation doesn't make sense to me. As for your quote about killing someone and then being forgiven - that would be total hypocrisy. You need to be honest about your repentance. And regardless of whether you are forgiven, you still have to live with the consequences in this world.

CuRoi - you're right, I talked a lot about things I see as evidence, and did'nt mean to relate them as proven statements. But I don't believe it is about faith alone. There is historical evidence Jesus walked the earth - and for him to say what he said he either *was* God, or a nut case. The difference between the two is the miracles he performed. That, combined with the other evidence, is enough for me.

Your examples of hypocrisy from Christians is sadly true, and in my experience that is something that commonly occurs when you stop focusing on Christ and start focusing on worldly things. It is a hazard of Christianity that you are called to remain as a part of the world, and that you will continue to be tested.

I don't claim any monopoly on a change for the good to one religion. But speaking from my own experience, I do know what a difference it made. It's a slow process.

Funnily enough, a developer friend of mine and I had a very similar discussion regarding the historical evidence that proved that Islam is the one true religion.

Great post :) I think most people hear think that Christianity requires "faith" and think "blind faith". To be fair, this is what most religions require, since they are unfalsifiable, based on someone's visions/dream/insights, or in the case of Scientology, vivid imagination.

But Christianity is very much falsifiable. The bible is chock full of verifiable historical claims, and many have been verified. The bizarre way Jesus' handful of followers acted after his death really has no explanation except that provided in the bible.

Real faith is what happens *after* weighing up the evidence, finding it highly compelling, and accepting its implications.

I take issue with your assertion that there are somet things that we know at birth, such as good and evil. This is patently false. So far as I'm aware, the only thing a new-born infant knows is how to cry. Calling even that "knowledge" is a bit of a stretch. Hell, they have to be taught how to suckle.

Children are taught right from wrong (or good from evil) by their parents and other people around them. It is a process that takes years. A two year old does not understand why hitting another child is wrong, just that mommy gets very upset and he should stop doing it. The more abstract reasons one should practice kindness are not understood until at least five years of age, and often not until several years later. Of course, some people never have such lessons in life, and consequently behave in a violent or socially disruptive manner their entire lives.

Brett - right on. Christianity is not about trying to earn my way to heaven, it's about realizing that I can never do that, and that Jesus paid for my many sins through his death. As the hymn says, "'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear, 'twas grace my fears relieved." Amen!

Brett, of course my question "is all religion moronic?" was a bit of a stretch. I know many smart people who proclaim themselves believers: they're certainly not morons. I also know some smart people who believe in astrology, or that they can beat the house at the casino. Sometimes people believe the weirdest things and if you add to that the powerful conditioning that religion imposes on most people from a very early age, it's easy to understand what's happening.

As for what is easier to believe, it's certainly easier to believe in a Universe which came out of nothingness than to believe in an all-powerful being who came out of nothingness and created the Universe. You have fewer implausibilities to believe in the first case and they also obey all know laws of nature.

And no, there is no historical evidence of most things that there are in the Bible: no evidence of the Genesis, no evidence of the Flood (which most certainly did NOT happen), no evidence of the Exodus, no evidence of the divinity of Jesus and very weak evidence of Jesus' own existence. What there is evidence of is the fact that the Bible was written, rewritten and manipulated by many people over the course of many centuries.

Brett,

That was a 'good work'. Thanks.

I can easily understand that to some of the people who do not accept that God's Truth and scientific truth converge, religion is for morons.

For me, the stumbling block to faith was my training in science. As a physics major (and a fan of Asimov's Foundation Trilogy), I was convinced that all of life could be explained, and wiould be explained, in terms of scientific equations, derived from observation. I realized later that I had an unjustified faith in science. In my certainty of my physics class, I was convinced that much of what is written in scripture is false only because it wasn't scientific.

Today, I understand that the truths discovered through science is the Truth created by God. Its also true that the Truth of God has been and is waiting to be discovered by science. Out of certainty of this convergence of the truth of science and God, when we come across a line of scripture which contraticts our understanding of the physical world, we should look behind the literal meaning of the scripture for the divine Truth. A teacher of the Word is of great help in discovery of the diving meaning. The Holy Spirit is essential.

Literal meaning of the scripture so often conflicts with modern understanding of physical world. Its unfortunate. Too many people, people of science specifically, find this as a stumbling block like I did, and consequently find the outreach of our God too incredible to accept. As a result, too many people do not become faithful believers.

This is where the Holy Spirit starts to work. He touched me when I watched the love of the Church pour forth while my father lay dying. Prior, I thought the Church was just brick, mortar and a bunch of rules made up by some old guys in the Vatican. But since then, I've come to understand Church as the living presence of Christ. This could only come through the working of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit cannot be measured in graduated cylinders. The presence of our Lord in the Eucharist cannot be detected by any scientific instrument no matter how sensitive. The love that God the Father has for ALL of us cannot be understood in any scientific term. Proof cannot be had without faith.

I hope I'm not out of line to make a correction for Ugo. Christian belief does not require you to believe that God was created out of nothing. Christian belief holds the God is Creator and not the created. When Moses asked for the name of the God that is sending him to free the Hebrews from slavery, God replied: "I AM". God is more than simply a supernatural being. He is more than the totality of everything. He is existence itself.

May the peace of Christ be with you, even if you are not a believer.

Regards,
John

P.S. I, too, also want to apologize on behalf of all christians for the behavior of some christians in the name of Christ our Lord. Its not easy to live as Christ asks us to, and many of us get it so wrong as to be hurtful. I pray that you do not let these past sins prevent you from seeking and finding the healing power of Christ, the son of our God.

I am a staunch athiest as the existence of an all seeing god who knows the individual thoughts and actions of billions of people at once is laughable at best. However, if you throw out the magic and fantastic tales that defy the logical world we inhabit and concentrate on the teachings of christ the world would be a beutiful and harmonious place. I dont believe Jesus was the son of god, or even that he existed at all but the character of jesus has some important stuff to say about the way humanity should treat each other. Christians are not morons for immitating the morals and values of christ, but to throw all rationality out the window and accept that the bible is the divine word of god and the existence of heaven and hell is certainly for one of lesser inteligence, childhood brainwashing or overwhelming fear of death.

I was raised christian, but by an Atheist family, so I never did belive that Noah's ark and Adam and Eve and the goliath were real, they were just silly little bedtime stories like Doctor Zeus. Another important thing is that I was tought Evolution is a fact, not intellegent Design. Therefore, it is pretty obvious why I became an Atheist. Anyway, religion isn't really moronic, it teaches good morals, and in my case, provided interesting stories to think about. However, many times, it will be tought to morons, who then turn it into something that is laughably stupid. For instance, I just watched a show where a Christian mother went into a Buddists house, and then went back screaming how the whole house was "tainted with the dark side", and how everything was discusting and corrupt because the people inside did not belive what she did. The worst thing is, she swore and screamed and cried about it infront of her toddler, who is now mentally screwed. It is easy to see her daughter doing the same stupid thing later in life, which is truley sad. So, I shall repeat,

It isn't Religion itself that is stupid, just when it is tought to morons, is it twisted.

Found my way here while trying to find info on vmware on Ubuntu but got distracted ...

hey, it's a pleasant change read discussion on religion with some thoughtful comments instead of name calling.
A few of my thoughts about faith here
http://mydogsbreakfast.blogspot.com/2006/09/does-god-exista-number-of-times-i-have.html

People fight and argue over religion and details within it, but they have forgotten the purpose of religion and why people create different ones to begin with.

Religions usually begin with some guy who becomes enlightened with the truth of the universe, and then lives his life based on that truth and spreads the word for others to live by them as well.

However, isn't all that matters, that someone is happy? Why should a person devote their life to God in the hopes of an afterlife that repays them. To me, that is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. People should stop for a minute and try to understand that they're gonna die one day, and they should make the most of what they can, while they can.

I can't help but feel sorry for those influenced by religion as if it were a desease inflicked apon a defenceless child by their well meaning but mis informed parents.

It can be cured however, with curiosity so I am hopeful but forever saddend.

Killing in the name of? well leave out of it.